I’ll probably regret this…
In response to my post, "The Oldest Profession", someone calling himself James B Logwriter tried to post a comment that I rejected, but I've been thinking about it. He wrote,
I don’t really agree, because I don't think you know anything about prostitution, and you can't imagine working as a prostitute.
There are many different levels of prostitution, and it has a different significance in different cultures. Since I have written many thousands of words about prostitution on my own blog, I am not going to repeat here, but you might also be interested to read the blog of my friend Nia, who is a prostitute, and also a damn good writer.
I’d dispute the description of Nia as a “damn good writer”, but Mr Logwriter’s taste in writers (and other matters) is clearly very different from mine.
He said, “… you can’t imagine working as a prostitute,” but I can; I’d just rather not. Judging from Nia’s blog, her approach to prostitution might be safer than the street-walkers who’ve been murdered in Ipswich, but it’s still a dangerous game.
Anyway, I investigated Mr Logwriter’s blog, and his friend Nia’s, and several others that link to theirs. They make depressing reading.
Mr Logwriter’s blog is called “Memoirs of a Whoremonger”, and is described thus:
This is a series of photo essays that tells of my experiences as a man in his early 50s who finds himself single again and travels to the Dominican Republic many times, learning to speak Spanish, having sex with dozens of attractive young women, and meeting a formidable woman who became his 'novia' or girlfriend. Everything here is true, though slightly rearranged in some cases to make a better narrative or to preserve anonymity and to protect the guilty.
The Dominican Republic is popular with sex tourists and sex traffickers. However the whoremonger might like to justify his behaviour, he’s just one of many who exploit impoverished women for personal gratification. Approximately 30% of Dominicans live below the poverty line. The whoremonger expresses a preference for black women, who are the most impoverished. Little wonder that many resort to prostitution.
In the BHA forum I referred to prostitute’s clients as “… generally emotionally inadequate, for a variety of reasons. They are also highly irresponsible, because most are unwilling to be tested or treated for sexually transmitted diseases - most HIV is spread by heterosexual activity, where men infect their innocent partners and, in turn, their children.”
One of the men who’ve contributed to the thread wrote,
What does “emotionally inadequate” mean? Inadequate for what? I’m not aware that there’s much known about men who frequent prostitutes - they are even harder to study than the prostitutes themselves. What are you basing this assertion on?
I meant that men who regularly pay for sex appear to lack the emotional wherewithal to deal with life as mature individuals, by failing to control their impulses and by treating women’s bodies as commodities. Do they regard prostitutes as different from other women, by deluding themselves that they’re more sexual? Or do they think that all reasonably attractive women are potential prostitutes? However they feel about women in general, their attitude towards prostitutes must involve emotional distance while engaged in sexual intimacy. If they can do this while using a prostitute, is it something they turn on and off at will? How do they relate to the other women in their lives?
In his book Emotional Intelligence, Daniel Goldman describes a research project with four-year-olds at Stanford University in the ‘60s, when the children were promised a reward for resisting the impulse to gobble some marshmallows immediately. When the experimenters left the room, some children distracted themselves from temptation by covering their eyes, talking, playing games and so on, while others couldn’t wait fifteen minutes for their reward and grabbed marshmallows within seconds of being left. The same children were tracked down as adolescents and some as students. Unsurprisingly, the marshmallow-grabbers didn’t do so well. They lacked perseverance and coped badly with frustration, amongst other things.
I’m not suggesting that men who pay for sex were all greedy, impatient four-year-olds, but there is something very immature about expecting to have what you want, including sex, regardless of the effect of your behaviour.
Most of the humanists I know try to live ethically – they’re environmentally aware, they avoid doing anything that exploits other people or animals, and they buy fair trade goods. Prostitution isn’t a fair trade. It involves some of the poorest, most vulnerable women, who are manipulated, abused and trafficked in huge numbers. The call girls who are simply expensive prostitutes may say that they do what they do freely, but read what they say and tell me, honestly, that they’re well-balanced, happy individuals.
A woman who’s contributed to the BHA thread wrote,
… what about a man who offers a starving woman food in exchange for sex? She agrees; there is no threat of violence. Would you consider this to be coercion? The contract between a prostitute and client is not one agreed freely between equals. The prostitute’s choices are limited and the client has the power to exploit this vulnerability. As I’ve already said, psychological problems and low self-esteem precede prostitution. Many of the women involved already have these problems, which is what leaves them open to pimps and clients in the first place. Don’t you accept that there is anything intrinsically damaging about renting out the most intimate parts of the body for someone else’s gratification? Prostitutes speak of having to turn off their feelings and distance themselves from reality whilst with clients. It is degrading and dehumanising and this is not just a result of it being against the law or of society having a bad attitude towards sex.
I totally agree.





19 comments:
It would be impossible to answer all the points in your response to my response but here are a few.
Yes, I would agree that Nia is not Proust, but she writes about some interesting things in a reasonably literate manner, and appears to be a warm and friendly person, inasmuch as one can judge from a blog.
You say you CAN imagine working as a prostitute, but the rest of what you write seems to negate this.
"The Dominican Republic is popular with sex tourists and sex traffickers."
The first part of this is correct, but I'm not so sure about the second. I have met Dominican prostitutes who have just returned from working overseas, who are already planning to make their next trip. Of course they are only in it for the money, but they seem to prefer this to working in the low paying factory jobs in the 'economic zone' around Santiago.
"However the whoremonger might like to justify his behaviour, he’s just one of many who exploit impoverished women for personal gratification."
Well, all relationships have a contractual element of give and take. Over the last three years I have been pretty much the sole support of my Dominican girlfriend, her two children, and her mother. I have paid for a new bathroom and a water storage cistern at the back of her mother's house (shack) and I have paid to send her son to summer baseball camp in Puerto Rico. I have also paid for a mammogram for my girlfriend, and removal of painful wisdom teeth. In return I have had sex and affection, had my shirt tucked in for me, and a few other personal services.
So who is exploiting who?
The reason I don't think that you can imagine working as a prostitute is because you put so much emphasis on things like "their attitude towards prostitutes must involve emotional distance while engaged in sexual intimacy." In my opinion emotional distance during sex is more likely in marriage when you have a partner with whom you have had sex hundreds or thousands of times, making it quite routine,
than when one has a new partner who is presumably interesting and with whom one is putting one's best foot forward. My experience of prostitution is that the amazing thing is how nice the participants are to each other, for the most part. However, I have always argued that even in paid sex, it is necessary to find a partner with whom one has a level of mutuality, because sex with an uninterested party is about as thrilling as squirting cream into a doughnut in a bakery.
Of course, my choice of sexual partners does not include drug addicts. They are the ones whom I should think would be emotionally distant. The same would apply to cigarette smokers who probably can't wait to get the sex over so that they can have a puff.
I don't want to get personal in this response, as I don't know anything about you, but I see that your son is or was travelling in Cambodia, a place where prostitution is by no means unknown. I had a friend a couple of years ago whom I met in the Dominican Republic and who had made several trips to Thailand. He felt his cover story was getting thin when his mother said to him: "Well, I don't know, how many darn temples can you visit?"
I'm not really sure what my stance is on prostitution but I would be curious to know what you think about the following scenario? What if prostitution was totally legal, completly accepted in society, everyone was tested for STIs and prostitutes earned £30k p.a.? I'm not sure that demand or supply would fall? I'm sure like anything, after a while a black market offering cheaper services would spring up again but I don't think the industry is ever going to go away.
Whether or not you believe it to be immoral I think sexual urges will always be stronger than any other and some men will be able to maintain other family relationships by fulfilling their sexual needs elsewhere. I don't encourage this type of relationship but I'm not so sure that a lot of normal hetrosexual relationships aren't that much different, i.e. Men are only with their girlfriends or wives for the sex and move on to another female when the offer is taken away.
It's a complicated subject and I don't believe it's as clear cut as the clients being the abusers and the prostitues the victims. If a man is willing to pay hundreds of pounds for an illicit service some might describe him as a victim, possibly in need of rehabilitation.
JBL:
Women from the Dominican Republic are mainly trafficked to Spain, Italy, Austria and the Netherlands. There are 50,000 Dominican women working overseas in the sex industry, the fourth highest number in the world.
There are many reasons to visit Cambodia, unrelated to sex. My son's involved with an organisation that provides Cambodian men and women with training so that they can support themselves and their families without resorting to prostitution or other illegal activities, but he can answer for himself.
Nick:
The effect of legalising prostitution can be to make matters worse. In Holland they’ve recently closed brothels in the red light district of Amsterdam which were being used as a front for organised crime.
The report on the Women’s Justice Center website refers to such problems:
"… the outcomes, as revealed in the Univ. of London study, in the states under review that had legalized or regulated prostitution were found to be just as discouraging or even more discouraging than the traditional all round criminalization. In each case the results were dramatic in the negative. Legalization and/or regulation of prostitution, according to the study, led to:
• A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry,
• A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry,
• A dramatic increase in child prostitution,
• An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region, and
• Indications of an increase in violence against women.
"In the state of Victoria, Australia, where a system of legalized, regulated brothels was established, there was such an explosion in the number of brothels that it immediately overwhelmed the system's ability to regulate them, and just as quickly these brothels became a mire of organized crime, corruption, and related crimes. In addition, surveys of the prostitutes working under systems of legalization and regulation find that the prostitutes themselves continue to feel coerced, forced, and unsafe in the business."
(Copyright © Marie De Santis, Women's Justice Center)
I recently emailed my MP to suggest that the Swedish approach might be considered here after the murder enquiry had ended, and he’s replied that he’s read the Women’s Justice Center report “with interest”, and that my suggestion “should be given careful consideration”.
James,
You have made a pretty bold insinuation about my motives for travelling in Cambodia - all I can say in response is that I'm glad not everyone thinks like you, and a bit saddened that you feel the need to take what reads like a cheap shot.
My conscience is clear, as are the consciences of many very fine people of all ages working voluntarily to assist disadvantaged people. To return your cheap shot with another, I don't expect anything in return if I have assisted someone poor with their education (which I do), bought them food (which I have), or given them some much needed care and attention (which I have). I personally find the idea pretty distasteful. As you have seen fit to second-guess my motives, I assume you know the minutiae of my experience. I assume you think it might be acceptable for me to screw a twenty year old girl I taught English to in Cambodia, but not the baby with hydrocephalus that I held in Vietnam or the boy whose education I sponsor in India? If my question seems blunt and inappropriate, it is because your assertion is blunt and inappropriate.
I do have some perspective on this. I saw a lot of Western men in Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam with young girls, and spoke at length with one of them, a retired Marine with a Cambodian girlfriend who was quite open about his ‘arrangement’ with her. Their arrangement notwithstanding, she tried unsuccessfully to seduce me after he had gone to bed. I appreciate how your relationship with your Dominican girlfriend works. I can actually sympathise with your argument, even if I don't share it – I would only ask that you don’t make any assumptions about anyone else to shore up your own argument, and certainly don’t claim to represent all men.
Margaret,
I can assure you that I work independently.
What form of assesment you use, to define a well balanced,happy individual ?
Escorting is not flowers and roses, and I try to illustrate that in my blog. It has its challenging moments, as most jobs do.
I can appreciate that you have a different frame of reference, which may not enable you to see things differently.
I would suggest that you read Prostitution Power and Freedom by Julia O'connell Davidson, and Whores and other feminists by Jill Nagle.
Nia, I didn't imagine that you worked for anyone but yourself. However, your post "Trust, betrayal, vulnerability and security" describes a world where you have to be constantly on your guard. As for being "well-balanced"; I don't regard sex work as being psychologically healthy for anyone, however strong a case some "feminist" sex-workers may make. Feminism means the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of sexual equality, and the relationship between a prostitute and a client is essentially unequal.
The women who've been murdered in my area were young street-walkers, so especially vulnerable. I've considered the argument about legalising prostitution, but the evidence so far suggests that it doesn't reduce the risks to women like them, or reduce all the associated problems with drug use, crime and sex trafficking.
As far as James and "The Glengarry Leads" are concerned, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I find this a very interesting debate. I'll come clean from the start and say that I am a humanist, I do see escorts and I have met Nia in her role as an escort.
I genuinely want to behave in an ethical way, so I'm always interested in reading posts by people who take the view that prostitution is always unethical.
For me, a lot of the points in the original post read like subjective opinion rather than informed reasoning. This surprised me coming from a humanist, so maybe I just misunderstood. These are the things that I didn't find useful or convincing:
1) To say that you _can_ imagine being a prostitute is fine, but unless you have met a large and varied sample of prostitutes and gained some insight into their lives, your imagination is just that and I don't know what value (if any) I should put on your ability to imagine yourself into other people's heads.
2) The passage on the emotional inadequacy of prostitute's clients didn't convince me of much. To me your logic reads:
i) A study shows some 4-year olds have problems resisting impulses, i.e. low self-control.
ii) When older, such people lack perseverance and cope badly with frustration.
iii) You imagine all escort clients must be like that and hence emotionally inadequate.
I have no problem with points (i) and (ii) but I find your conclusion to be nothing but prejudice on your part. If you can tie (i) and (ii) together with studies of the private lives of escort clients and conclude (iii) then you'd be on firmer ground.
Your comment "there is something very immature about expecting to have what you want, including sex, regardless of the effect of your behaviour" just doesn't cut it for me. If that is immaturity, then everyone I know is immature to some degree or another. And is being "immature" in this sense, the same as "emotionally inadequate"? Can't someone have lower self-control but still be a fully-functioning emotional person?
To me this looks like either bad logic, or a clumsy attempt at smearing. Remember that mid-level prostitutes (aka "escorts") in this country charge 200-300 per hour, and consequently their clients are financially successful people, if nothing else.
If you are implying that clients have less-than-average self-control, then that might be true, but it seems intellectually dishonest to make the leap from that to calling them "emotionally inadequate" which is a far more loaded term.
3) Finally, I don't understand your argument about fair trade. It would be great if you could expand on that bit. For example, you say it's unethical to pay a starving woman for sex because she has few options so the trade isn't equitable. Of course if someone were truly starving, then the only ethical thing is to give them aid with no strings attached. So let's not use such extreme terms, and just say the woman is hungry and has to work all her waking hours for just barely enough food to survive on. She isn't in danger of dying, but she believes that her quality of life is very low. Is it wrong to pay her for sex? She could use the money to take a break from her neverending life of poorly paid work. She could use the money to buy useful things, or pay off creditors. If, rather than sex, she sold off a highly emotionally significant necklace that her dead mother had given her, would that be more or less wrong, and why? I.e. is it the inequalities that are innate in a capitalist system that you object to, or is there something unique about selling sex? Do you think it's impossible for any woman of any background to sell sex and be undamaged by it? If so, given that some people disagree with you, including Nia who actually is an educated escort (albeit with terrible punctuation skills,) what makes you so sure that this isn't just an unreliable "gut feeling" of yours?
Sorry if my questions seem a bit harsh, but as a fellow humanist, I hope you'll appreciate how important it is to separate conclusions based on evidence and deductive reasoning, from those based on gut instinct, received wisdom and unquestioned moral absolutes.
Margaret,
Thank you for your response. The post that you referred to on my blog, mentions other worlds where we have to be on guard.
You could say the same of a Masseur or Reflexologist.
Psychiatrists and Psychotherapists face the same issues, too.Their clients could become psychotic at any time, and attack them.
You are entitled to your opinion.
I had hoped that you were able to have a wider perspective, and read other viewpoints.
I have picked up that it is depressing for you to read any sex work related blogs, but there are other bloggers out there, that may enable you to have a wider perspective.
Julia O'Connell Davidson, is not a sex worker, that is why I encourage you to read her book. She is a Sociologist. Her book covers all aspects of the industry in the UK.
It is thought provoking, and she has raised some of your issues.
She has recently published an article on trafficking which is on my blog.
What happened in Ipswich is awful, and I wait to see what policies will be put in place, to limit these sort of attacks happening in future.
I think we have to agree to disagree too.
It's a waste of time trying to achieve any sort of agreement with buyers of sex - I have no respect for them, and never will. Nathan mentioned "brick walls" when we last discussed the subject, very briefly.
The only prostitutes I've known were at the bottom of the heap (as most are). They sold sex for a variety of reasons, mainly poverty, and were definitely not happy hookers.
I've ordered the book by Julia O'Connell Davidson that Nia recommends, as well as The Idea of Prostitution by Sheila Jeffreys, which "explores the idea of men's entitlement to abuse and profit from the abuse of women in prostitution".
The following are also interesting:
Men create the demand, women are the supply, a lecture on the exploitation of women by Donna Hughes of the University of Rhode Island, and pages 69-77 of the PDF document Sex trafficking in the United States, co-authored by Dr Hughes and Dr Janice Raymond - a section that deals with men who buy sex.
However many examples the contributors might offer of supposedly harmless transactions as sellers or buyers, the overwhelming evidence is that prostitution is an internationally destructive activity that exploits and degrades women.
It's unlikely that I'll allow any more comments on this post, unless they can refer me to reliable sources of information about the psychology of the buyers and/or projects that have successfully helped women escape the so-called "industry". (I know about the Poppy project).
Margaret,
There is a project that I have come across that has a link on my site called the U turn project.It is based in London.
http://www.uturnproject.co.uk/about.htm
Dr Teela Sanders who wrote "Sex Work a risky business"
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Work-Business-Teela-Sanders/dp/1843920824
has a new book out, in 2007 based on her interviews with punters.
A number of her articles which are not available to the wider public, are on my site.
She has written an article which I have, but will put on my site in the course of the month, about women leaving the industry.
I am sorry that the only prostitutes you know are at the bottom of the heap,as that seems to have informed your opinion.
I hope Professor Julia O'Connell Davidson's book, widens your perspective.
I am in touch with both of them, and they send me information for my readers.
I will be putting a reading list on my site over the next few days.
Margaret,
I see you want to close the comments on this post, but I would ask you to spare a little more space to say that I apologize to Nathan for any aspersion I may have cast on his motives for travel to places like Cambodia and Thailand.
The comments he has written here are actually much enlightening than what I had read on his blog, though admittedly I had only scanned his blog briefly, mainly in the article entitled "Why Is Everyone Going to Cambodia", in which prostitution is not mentioned as a motivator for travel, and in his article on Bankok in which he remarks on "shifty-looking single white men in their forties or older" whom he probably correctly identified as sex tourists.
My intention was more to suggest--though I did not make the point clearly--that while many young backpackers visit these countries and do not partake in the sexual services industry, for numerous reasons which probably include idealism, lack of money, existing monogamous relationships etc., I suspect that familiarity with those places obtained at a young age often prepares the ground for future visits a decade or two later, and that I might have a partial anser to the question why is everyone is going to Cambodia.
I would also comment that as a shifty looking white male of over 40 myself, I can say that when one gets older, one does not FEEL significantly different from when one is young and handsome.
Also, may I briefly comment on the statistics for women "trafficked" from the Dominican Republic.
These statistics seem to come from organizations like ECPAT that, as far as I can make out, receive grants from governments, churches, charities and thinktanks to carry out "studies" of sexual trafficking.
They then come up with wildly exaggerated figures to justify the need for them to continue to "study" the problem and the phony figures get widely disseminated.
The Dominican Republic is a poor country and many people emigrate for economic reasons, but it is unreasonable to count every single woman who leaves the country for work or marriage as a person who is being trafficked, which is what these QUANGOs seem to do. If their statistics are right, then major airlines would go completely out of business without sale of seats for "trafficking".
You cite the Netherlands as a major recipient of trafficked Dominican women, but to the best of my knowledge there are no more than a few dozen Dominican prostitutes at most working in the whole country.
If there are actually several thousand, then they are doing a very poor job in advertising their services, because the men who would like to use them certainly do not know where to find them.
I am doing a little more research on this topic, but do not have any definitive data right now.
Just three of the reports from reputable organisations on prostitution and sex trafficking in the Dominican Republic found through Google - the statistics vary, but the evidence points to a serious problem.
US Department of State report
UN press release
Inter-American Commission on Human Rights
I think it's fair to say that in affluent countries like ours, most women prostitutes either have a drugs problem or have been trafficked in from abroad, while in less developed countries poverty and a lack of basic human rights for women are the main reasons they're vulnerable.
Women like Nia are in a small minority.
Oh, and I'd have no problem with airlines going out of business for lack of trade from sex tourists - that would be an environmental benefit.
OK, Margaret, you asked for some real data and I have found something.
I had a quick look at a couple of your references. #1 I find hilariously amusing and about as reliable as the US intelligence on weapons of mass destruction, because the alleged woman trafficker who is being held in jail is accused of illegally arranging overseas (European) adoptions for poor orphans who have no families to take care of them. She was crying her eyes out in court and did not think she had done anything wrong.
The second report actually confirms something I already told you, which is that girls in the DR find working overseas as prostitutes preferable to working as wage slaves in the clothing factories in the "economic development zone" in the DR.
However, the data that I would like to offer up, which is more in accordance with my own perception is from the blog called:
http://fleshtrade.blogspot.com/
The next section is quoted from there:
***
Liesbeth Venicz in her report "Achter de ramen, veldwerk onder raamprostituees in Groningen" (1998) about Latin American women in window prostitution in Groningen (she had contact with 42 Latin American prostitutes: 29 Dominican, 9 Colombian, 1 Venezuelan, 1 Argentine, 1 Brazilian en 1 Jamaican prostitute):
***
page 9:
Most originating from the Dominican Republic and Colombia. Most women are older than thirty and some even older than forty. A proportion has been in the Netherlands for a longer period. The women who have just arrived and the illegal women often lead a nomadic existence. They often work for a short period to prevent expulsion. During their stay in Europe they work in a great many cities and countries. Most women have children and other family members, like younger brothers and sisters or elderly parents in the country of origin, for whom they earn a living. Aside from that they also save money for their own house. When that is achieved one saves usually for a taxi, a store or something else where they can make a living when they are back in the home country. Most Latinas who work her are not highly educated and rarely speak something different than Spanish. Therefore they have few contacts with other nationalities, but a lot with each other. Especially the Dominican women have in the last 15 years that they worked in the Netherlands, built a nice own network. Through this network childcare is arranged for instance, but also information is exchanged about rights and arrangements, lawyers and aid.
***
This seems to be congruent with what I have seen and what I understand from my discussions with Dominican prostitutes.
However, I will freely concede that they are guilty as charged of environmental pollution by jet aircraft.
In the end, we will simply have to agree to differ. There are many problems in this world and none of us have all the answers, but all I can say is that my novia's daughter (age 11) will not have to earn her living "en la calle" if I have anything to do with it.
I followed your link from "Reclusive leftist". Very informative and well thought out article. I don't comment too much on blogs, but I do read a lot. It seems to me that in just about every discussion about prostitution, the people who defend it have something substantial to gain from its legalization or general acceptance as a "normal" activity. The men are usually ones who use prostitutes(or believe they have the right to use one) and the women are one of the "happy hookers/sex workers". I find it interesting that they are the ones saying "Oh well! Prostitution isn't that bad!"
(It says that comments will be moderated. I hope mine gets published!)
Dear Anonymous,
I don't usually allow anonymous comments but made an exception in your case. You can choose a name (under 'other') if you comment again.
Thanks for visiting.
Oh! Sorry about that! I had intended to sign off with my name at the end, but forgot! Thanks for publishing the comment!
I've worked as an escort off-and-on for the past 10 years, mainly advertising independently on the Internet. I kept an anonymous blog for a year about my experiences, thoughts and feelings. I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a college degree and a decent day job. My reasons for escorting have been complex. But I will NEVER say I've been happy about what I've done. I agree with Answer 42's thoughts wholeheartedly. It is quite simple, those with power, money and advantages can exploit those without it. SIMPLE. I especially have a problem with overseas expats in poor countries like James B., who write blogs bragging about their "libertine" lifestyles, needing desperately to believe they're not part of the problem so they can go on enjoying themselves. They will write lengthy justifications for what they do. Notice, james deleted his blog recently. Feel free to read mine, I've stopped writing but I have a few posts left up for anybody curious about what goes on in the mind of a prostitute. Unlike Nia, my blog is anonymous, so I don't have to worry about alienating any clients when I have anything negative to say about the sex trade. Read some of the comments I get, too. A lot of johns get really, really pissed if I don't have something NICE to say about prostitution at all times. It's all very disturbing and I'm constantly in personal conflict.
I don't know how you manage to maintain your 'compartments'. It would do my head in!
What do you think of the Lady Heather character in CSI? Does she glamorise dominance?
I'll read a bit more of your blog later, but what you say about negative comments from johns doesn't surprise me, since they're all apparently deluding themselves about what women want or feel.
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